[MUD-Dev] PVP and perma-death

[Derek Licciardi]

HRose wrote:

> This is also why I say that the design should remove the griefing
> and not create gameplay around it. Because you are creating
> gameplay after a mistake.

> Another example: right now in World of Warcraft beta the griefing
> is basically the whole scope of PvP. In fact there's currently no
> purpose nor reward for killing enemies, aside killing important
> NPCs. So everyone tries to grief simply because it's the only way
> to produce a valuable "consequence" in the PvP, till the point
> that Blizzard had to put silly rules right in the Terms of
> Services to forbid particular behaviours.

[snip]

> The design of a game is a structure, if the structure has "holes"
> it means that the design is flawed and so griefing is
> possible. The exact same thing happens with money dupes (even if
> they are a result of both design and implementation). The model is
> the same, duping is a "bug" in the same way griefing is. They are
> both bugs. The duty of a designer is about isolating and removing
> those issues. Not create gameplay after them.

I think that is a pretty narrow view of griefing.  As JC alluded to,
griefing can happen in many ways that are completely unrelated to
the game play mechanics of the game.  I can chase you around and say
things about your family for hours on end and that is considered
griefing.  I didn't attack you; I didn't harm your character; I
violated no game mechanic; what I did do was destroy your session by
being a constant nag.  I griefed you.  Perhaps next time someone
will virtually rape someone or be racist towards someone else.  All
of that is griefing and game design alone is not going to get rid of
it.

I think your take on griefing is much too black and white.  Griefing
is a societal problem at its very core.  Sure it's often times
supported by game mechanics that very likely reward that behavior
even if it is inadvertently and in those cases the game mechanic
should be modified.  But stopping there will not stop griefing so
you will continually chase your "flawed" design until the game is
decommissioned.  In the end griefing is a social issue in my mind
and its best solved by the people involved in the society just as it
is in the real world.  We don't murder people because there are
rules against it imposed on ourselves by the collective society.
The honest man/woman doesn't discriminate because there are rules
against it imposed on ourselves by the collective society.  Let's
talk about how to change designs to enable the societies in game to
police themselves properly (with in-game tools, controls and proper
game-play-supported motivations to do so) and then I think we're
moving the genre towards a future of less griefing.  Perma-death
might be a tool to do just that if implemented properly.

Our dilemma is that we want exciting conflict.  Conflict brews
strong emotions and emotional people can act out in ways that are
mostly irrational.  Irrational behavior is largely considered
griefing so we strive to add safety nets and protections around the
online societies.  The key is that the griefing act is unacceptable
to the victim and it's our job to remove it through game design
changes or provide the right tools to allow it to be dealt with by
the players.  Most games forget the latter for a variety of reasons
or have game mechanics that prevent an ideal implementation.

IMHO, it's futile for a developer to think they can be all knowing
with respect to what safety nets are needed where.  Time and time
again we are shown that players are more efficient at finding the
holes in those nets and are better at managing those holes than we
are. (assuming proper motivation) On this list we are quick to all
out a poster with a player-centric view of the MMO because the
social norm here is that this is a discussion for MMO designers and
players typically do not know enough and should not know enough to
participate properly.  Inevitably, new list members conform to the
group and learn to participate along those established guidelines.
This is just the MUD-Dev way of controlling a behavior of its
members.  Look at EQ's raiding system that was in place long before
the developers ever got around to implementing game mechanics to
support it.  Waiting lists, advanced looting rights, etc., etc all
existed outside of the first line of code written to support it.
Many of these controls in EQ were built to stop forms of griefing
ala groups camping uber-dungeons. Eventually players conformed to it
and policed themselves.  The players managed their environment much
better than the developers could ever do it.  If game-play can be
built to properly motivate players to form these controls on their
environments then how come we can't use game-play to illicit
behaviors aimed at setting anti-griefing societal norms/patterns?

Derek
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