More on levels, was Re: [MUD-Dev] What is an RPG?

[Byron Ellacott]

On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 01:25, rick cronan wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-05-05 at 06:31, Mike Rozak wrote:

>>   -- "Metric" and "Payment to encourage players" - These can be
>>   achieved through other means than just levels. Money works very
>>   well, so does property, social status, etc.

> I disagree, for a couple of reasons.

I disagree with some of your disagreements, but mostly via
clarifications and alternate suggestions to the original premise. :)

> A level is a quick and easy metric as to a character's personal
> power regardless of that character's chosen profession.  Wealth,
> property and social status are of no interest to a D&D monk style
> character, for example.

Here, I would see 'social status' as the player's social status, not
their avatar's.  This may not be what Mike meant, but the player of
a D&D monk is the one concerned with their level, not the avatar
itself. I see 'social status' meaning 'has accomplished a bunch of
stuff and is therefore worthy of respect.'  SWG badges, for
instance, are a form of social status that is effectively invisible
to the avatar (as is the SWG combat level) but is[1] a way to see
how accomplished a character is.

> Furthermore, being able to compare with other characters *across*
> classes / professions is important to players.  The player of a
> 15th level wizard knows his character is more personally powerful
> overall than the 10th level fighter he's talking to.  The player
> of a wizard with 147836 gold pieces isn't so sure how he compares
> to a fighter with 100592 gold pieces.

However, the fact that the 15th level wizard is more personally
powerful than his 10th level fighter friend means they cannot group.
If the wizard is advancing faster, or started sooner, the fighter is
excluded /by game mechanics/ from his circle of friends.

Levels which indicate achievement are not a problem, or at least,
not the problem I think we're discussing.  Levels which introduce
wide power differences, are.

> The other thing about levels of course is that they provide clear
> demarcation points for players to aim for.  I read books, and will
> often finish a chapter before I go to sleep at night.  Finishing
> the chapter gives me a specific to aim for.  Books without
> chapters are less satisfying for that pre-sleep read because
> there's no clear break point.  In a similar way, I think many
> players look forward to the significant boost in power that comes
> from leveling up that just doesn't work with the many small gains
> of a levelless system.  They get a sense of achievement from
> reaching that level that they simply don't get from improving one
> skill by a small amount several times.

This is another problem I see with levels.  Because the next level
is so important, the goal of the players becomes "reach the next
level" rather than "enjoy this particular adventure."  I also get a
sense of achievement from solving a particularly tough puzzle, or
defeating a tough monster, or soloing something people look at you
funny for wanting to solo.  But those achievements are effectively
unrewarded by MMOs[2].

--
bje

  [1] Or, perhaps, could have been, with more prominence and badges
  awarded for significant achievements.  The relative merits of
  SWG's badge system are largely irrelevant to the premise of a
  badge system, though.

  [2] Or at least, the rewards are generally less tangible than the
  rewards you get for a level.  Loot is a reward, but loot can be
  bought or traded rather than earned.  And while levels can be
  bought or traded on eBay, they cannot be bought or traded in the
  game world.  An avatar who is level 60 has achieved level 60, an
  avatar with a Godly Sword of Smiting is just as likely to have
  bought it or traded the Devil's Fork of Pitching for it.
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