More on levels, was Re: [MUD-Dev] What is an RPG?

[Mike Rozak]

>From rick cronan:

> A level is a quick and easy metric as to a character's personal
> power regardless of that character's chosen profession.  Wealth,
> property and social status are of no interest to a D&D monk style
> character, for example.

Good point. It is possible to have a "bad guys killed" metric too,
kind-of like fighter pilots in WWI and WWII had. Or to have "number
of princesses recued", etc. Levels make a convenient index of other
metrics.

> Furthermore, being able to compare with other characters *across*
> classes / professions is important to players.  The player of a
> 15th

This is true in a combat-oriented game, which MMORPGs currently are.
However, in a game where crafting is possible and encouraged, an 8th
level fighter is not comparable to an 8th level basket weaver. It's
apples and oranges. Indicating that a quest is for 10th-15th level
characters also falls apart when basket weavers are added.

Levels can also be used by people to compare their rankings. I'd
like to point out that the urge for one person to compare himself to
another, through social status, money, etc. is a trait that's very
common amongst teenagers, and present in a much smaller percentage
of adults. Most adults that I know don't care whether someone else
has more money or a bigger car.  By designing a system where players
can compare their rankings, you're naturally attracting teenagers
and those adults interested in such comparisons. If there are no
obvious levels in the game then such people will become frustrated
and leave.

> The other thing about levels of course is that they provide clear
> demarcation points for players to aim for.  I read books, and will

Chapters in books - Yes, levels work like this, but a quest (or
other goal) is more analgous to a chapter.

>From Matt Mihaly: (Taken from Re: [MUD-Dev] Playing catch-up with levels)

>> Yes! Exactly! No matter how many options you have, no matter how
>> many ways you can go through a level, the player will ALWAYS
>> choose the path that is the quickest, easiest, and has the
>> highest rewards. They will min-max EVERYTHING in the game and
>> there is no balancing that can help that. The most obvious
>> solution to make that min-maxing part of gameplay.

> That is not true. MOST players will USUALLY choose the path that
> is quickest, easiest, and has the highest rewards. We have many
> players who play a race, for instance, that isn't the most
> effective for their purposes because they find it more
> fun. Perhaps you could argue that they are just min-maxing their
> fun, but I think the argument starts to lose some coherent at that
> point.

I'm cross-replying to topics because this issue is somewhat related
to Rick Cronan's post about levelling as a required metric for
comparing progress.  The level tool is a metric used by
minimaxers. Some people min-max everything, but not everyone is a
minimiaxer.

For example: In real life, I go hiking. The quickest way from point
A to point B is a car or plane, not by foot. In games, people that
play adventure games don't min-max, since they quickest way to solve
an adventure game is with the walkthrough.

Current worlds are designed to attract minimaxers; non-minimaxers
are either scared off or completely bored by the level grind. If
your virtual world is attracting minimaxers, and you don't want them
around, maybe the trick is to design the rules of virtual world
(such as how levelling works) so minimaxers won't be attracted.

>From Byron Ellacott:

>     => Players at separate levels have difficulty engaging in
>     content together.

Very true. This is a big problem. GURPs (face-to-face RPG) got
around this somewhat by making level steps smaller, so while an
experienced character was stronger, they weren't infinitely
stronger. But, if this approach is taken then players are still
stuck fighting orcs forever.

Mike Rozak
http://www.mxac.com.au
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