[MUD-Dev2] [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs

[Tess Snider]

On 5/16/07, Lachek Butalek <lachek at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, see, I like permadeath. In the virtual world, that is.

See my comments on the permadeath thread for my thoughts on that. :)

> Why is it that when an enemy corporation suddenly launches an assault
> on your home system in Eve Online, players scrambling to evacuate
> and/or organize a defense, it is seen as "fun and immersive gameplay"
> but when an NPC mob does it in YAFMMORPG it is seen as gamebreaking
> and disruptive?

Aren't enemy corporations run by players?  Psychologically speaking,
that's apples and oranges.

> And yes, I do believe that people who got stomped on by a "boss
> monster" would be far, far more upset if they could claim "I'd be able
> to kill it too, if I only had two more levels and a Sword of Sharp
> Diamond" than if they knew the big foozle was more or less
> undefeatable by anything but a nation-scale assault.

That's like saying that people feel much better being struck down by
God than they do being eaten by a random shark.  Either way, they've
been slaughtered through bad luck and no consequence of their own
actions, beyond just trying to play the game.

> I keep hearing this argument and think it very much plays into what
> type of gamer you are. One of my favourite quotes comes from my
> friend, who played SW:Galaxies religiously prior to the NGE, as he's
> reading an interview with whoever was responsible for the NGE debacle.
> The fellow being interviewed claims "We knew we had to do something
> drastic, to make the players feel like they're being cast as heroes.
> Nobody wants to be a moisture farmer on Tattooine." to which my friend
> shouts at the monitor, "*I* wanted to be a damn moisture farmer on
> Tattooine!".

What type of gamer do you think *I* am?  I was a tailor on SWG.  A tailor!

But you know what?  I had to train up my pistoleer skill.  Why?
Because there were too many random, deadly mobs camping my mining
equipment and my shop.  As I've already made it copiously clear, I
don't enjoy being killed by random death from above when I'm just
trying to go about my business.  I'm sure that Luke's Skywalker's aunt
and uncle weren't too happy about it, either.


> The issue there is that players want (or, people *think* players
> want) to see drastic increases in character ability every few hours of
> gameplay.

Well, the challenge here is having a reward schedule that is going to
be sufficiently satisfying to the player.

But, the power-level distinction you're making is largely semantic, in
most of the current games, out there.  It has no meaning to have
"Phenomenal Cosmic Power III," when the shopkeeper who buys your
titan-skins can still kick your little arse.  It's just a name.  All
of your power gain is largely negated through the constant change of
venue required to keep your challenges hard enough to gain further
power.  It's all a bit sisyphean, really.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is the right way to do things.  It's
kind of silly.  But, it *does* have some useful side effects.  Using
player power increases to drive them towards more difficult content
creates a natural progression of the players through content they
haven't seen yet, keeping the game fresher for them.  Yes, it's more
*game*-like, and less *world*-like to do this, but that's not a bad
thing.  We have room for both game-like and world-like MMOs, and it
doesn't necessarily make sense to always try to find blanket solutions
that work in both places.

> Ah, but when "Rat Killer Online" involves the exact same
> button-mashing motions as "Wheat Farmer Online" does, and RKO seems
> like a cardboard cutout virtual world designed to fulfill some 14-year
> old's testosterone-driven fantasies of being a cool hero decked out in
> all purples, while WFO actually properly simulates an economy and I
> can see how my wheat farming has a real impact in the world - do you
> still stand by that argument?

Yes.  By all means, go build Wheat Farmer Online, and prove me wrong.  :)

> I maintain that if companies put as much time and effort into cool
> animations of wheat flowing in the wind as they do to animate some
> Bonebreaker Gnoll's death animation, lots of people would be a whole
> lot more interested in crafting.

Lots of people are already interested in crafting!  Though, in most
games with crafting, I learn to craft new things over time.  Wheat
farmers... grow wheat.

> > Crippled?  I'm not so sure you want to cripple people.  Please see my
> > earlier post, entitled "Framing and Player Psychology."
>
> Without hindrances there is nothing to overcome. With nothing to
> overcome, there is no game. By introducing a new hindrance, and a
> mechanism for overcoming that hindrance, you create new gameplay. If
> all you want is the flavour of killing monsters, then Progress Quest
> is a fantastic game.

This isn't about the flavor.

What is the hindrance in Tetris?  What about Bejeweled?  It's not
hindrance that creates a game.  It's challenge.  Hindrance can be a
type of challenge, but it's a negatively framed challenge.  Moreover,
it is the type of challenge that can make itself harder to overcome.
(e.g. if you are weak from hunger, it can be harder to do whatever it
is you need to do to obtain food.)

> Everyone seems to want larger and larger game worlds. Further, many
> MMO players consider themselves Explorers, who enjoy simply visiting
> new places, talking to new NPCs and experiencing new vistas. These
> folks loathe teleportation / fast travel in all its forms...

I AM one of "these folks," and I DON'T loathe teleportation or fast
travel, because why in Juno's name would I want to run through the
same stupid place I've already been 80 times, when I could be spending
my time seeing someplace new?

One should never make space for the sake of making space -- especially
if you think you're doing it for explorers.  All space should have a
reason to be, other than simply creating distance.  A large world full
of big, meaningless haunted golf courses isn't fun to explore.

> As I mentioned above, limiting opportunity gives an incentive to work
> towards gaining that opportunity. It is not a penalty, it is an
> opportunity for gameplay.

It all depends on how you frame it.

> #1: A food "stat" rather than multiple inventory items.
> [More description]

That'd be one way to do things, yeah.

> #2: Possibly, a system whereby staying at a particular food level
> increases your XP accumulation rate, similar to WoW's "rested" state
> which comes after downtime or rest at an inn.
> [More description]

That'd be another way to do it.  This would reflect, for example, the
fact that hunger makes it hard to learn new things.  Also, it uses
positive framing, in such a way that the players would probably like
it.

Tess