[MUD-Dev] Re: PvP systems

[John Buehler]

gmiller at classic-games.com writes:

> >> I want the ability to apply negative reinforcement in the face of
> >> inappropriate behavior.
>
> > And if the antagonist is more powerful than you are?
>
> That's where the details are tricky. To what extent do you favor a
> "more powerful" player? See the "curses and grief players" thread from
> a while back.  The system I described there tends to favor only those
> who don't participate.  It's the "thermonuclear war" approach. Even if
> PK is the only tool offered, there are numerous variations with
> different strengths and weaknesses. Some only provide significant
> punishment for frequent death (meaning that occasional random attacks
> don't cost you much, but punishing people who misbehave requires a
> group to work at it) while others punish you severely (meaning that
> getting involved in conflict is very dangerous, but random attacks can
> hurt the victim rather badly). Different systems have different power
> differentials between newbies and long-time players.

The curse approach only makes you plan your PKs (or whatever) for maximum
effect.  A player who isn't powerful cannot accumulate items of value.  As
soon as they accumulate (and carry) sufficiently valuable items, someone who
is willing to accept one player curse will PK him.

You may be wondering why someone who isn't powerful should have items of
value.  The world I have in mind isn't geared towards becoming powerful.
It's geared towards doing entertaining things, and there are many such paths
to entertainment.  Being a wandering woodsman might permit you to find
something valuable in the woods.  You don't have to be combat powerful, only
skilled in living in the woods.  Or you are a skilled craftsman and make
valuable items. It would seem ludicrous to me to create a fine sword, get
PK'd for it and then be able to curse the killer.  I'd just as soon not get
PK'd in the first place.

You also made comments about the difficulty of abuse of the curse system.  I
see no reason why a guild couldn't start cursing into the ground the odd
player that they disliked.  The victim's recourse is to complain or to curse
all the guild members back - which is annoying and time consuming.  It
serves as another means of PvP attack - cursing.  And I can easily imagine
certain guilds in EverQuest doing such a thing to a player who is not
aligned with a guild.

> > I'm assuming that most of these antagonists are children.  Beating
> > on a kid doesn't teach them anything except that you have to be
> > stronger than the next guy in order to be right.  "Might makes
> > right", etc.  Retribution is a no-win treatment of an ugly problem,
> > which is why I usually don't attempt to include it in my systems.
>
> All systems are based on "might makes right" in some form or
> another. The only question is what might is exercised and by whom.

Okay.  We have a bunch of teenagers running around in adult bodies with
swords (and curses).  How much retribution do you want to permit?

I'd rather just have the holodeck safeties put in place, to be lifted as
each participant likes.

> > Verbal harrassment has no real practical response except to return
> > the verbal harrassment.  Which only makes the victim look foolish
> > for being baited into acting like the imbecilic instigator.
>
> You mean in the system you described at the beginning of this thread?

Eh?  If a player wants to look foolish by engaging in verbal taunts with
some imbecile, that's their business.  I'm not going to try and claim that I
can come up with a system that detects insults and culls them from the game.
I'm suggesting that the only thing that a game should permit in reprisal for
verbal harrassment is to return it in kind.  And that a player choosing to
do such a thing is ill-advised.

JB

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