[MUD-Dev] Re: PvP systems

[the_logos at www.achaea.com]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, S. Patrick Gallaty wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <the_logos at www.achaea.com>
> To: <mud-dev at kanga.nu>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: PvP systems
> 
> > Fair enough, but the problem is how to give you the ability to apply
> > negative reinforcement _only_ in the face of inappropriate
> > behavior. Inappropriate behavior, unless you adept a very simplistic
> > definition of it, can't, as of now, be completely defined in code.
> 
> I can think off the top of my head of Legends of Kesmai, with their
> outlaw and murderer and aggressor status flags - and increased
> penalties for death for murderers, and forgiveness system.. there
> -were- PK's there, however you were severely limited in your ability
> to run amok without becoming hated and outlaw which made life quite
> complicated.

Any automated flag is a total cop-out PK system in my opinion. Automated
flags are entirely incapable of handling the grey areas that make up
nearly every PK experience. Grey areas such as assisting or revenging a
comrade. Slaying someone for calling your mother a whore, etc. The
fundamental problem is that there is simply _no way_ for the code to
recognize all situations that an average person would agree a Pkill is
called for. 

> An example of totally player run government is Dark Ages, which has
> player-elections, player-set laws in towns, citizenship, and the whole
> gamut.  Each town sets their own laws, democratically by the vote of
> players who are citizens of that town.  There are towns which will ban
> you for saying 'u' and 'plz'.  Other towns do not care.

Saying 'u' to someone doesn't tend to piss them off so much that they
threaten to sue the company if they get killed 'without reason'
again. Dark Ages doesn't have any way for players to really mess with
other players very well if I understand correctly.

Achaea works the same way, in that towns set whatever laws they please,
etc. Enforcing those laws are another matter, however, and of course
outside of the towns, there is no player jurisdiction.

 
> My point is that this isn't new territory.  I am distressed somewhat
> that biggest failing of the new breed of mud, the graphical MMORPG
> seems to lack most in the one area that we have the MOST experience in
> manipulating which is the social mechanics.  Players are the content
> that adds value to mpog's.  I find it depressing that so few of the
> new breed of games have leveraged this well yet.  I chalk it up to a
> pioneer attitude.  I think the MMORPG developers mislead themselves
> into believe that it's the content and game experience they are
> pioneering, when in truth it's the presentation.  I think that this is
> so much less glamorous that it's left unconfronted.

It's definitely not new territory, but it's also territory in which nobody
has come up with any workable solution.


> I hope the adage that graphical presentation is inversely proportional
> to depth in games doesn't hold true for the future ongoing for the
> mmorpg offerings.

This bias against graphical MUDs is silly. Most text muds are shallow as
hell. It's just "bash the monster, get the treasure." While that doesn't
eliminate the possibility of depth from the game, the deepest
monster-bashing game I've seen is Everquest, a graphical MUD. Further, the
graphical games have a production value that far exceeds any text mud I've
seen.

--matt

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