[MUD-Dev] Better Combat

[Michael Hartman]

Douglas Goodall wrote:
> Michael Hartman wrote:

>> Were you solo?

> On the boat, yes. On the teleport pad, very rarely (in which cases
> I did try to make some use of the time finding a group with
> limited success).

> There was typing during downtime, but I wouldn't call it
> conversation.

I wish some of the Mythic folks would chime in here. I bet they have
even better knowledge than I do about how much socialization takes
place (well took place) on teleport pads, and now takes place on
boats. When I played, the amount was enormous.

>> I must say that both as developer and player, my experience is
>> that forced idleness is absolutely crucial. There was a time that
>> we had a problem on Threshold with mages and fighters (at the
>> time the two most popular classes) fighting non-stop and rarely
>> chatting with anyone.

> You say this as if it's a bad thing...

Considering Threshold is a role playing *required* game (we enforce
it), yes this was a bad thing. We actively seek to run off people
who only want to hack-n-slash. That's not our niche.

> In another thread you compared CoH to Diablo2 as if that were a
> bad thing...

You misunderstood me. Perhaps I should mention that Diablo 2 is my
favorite PC game of all time. Thus, no comparison to D2 is ever
inherently "negative."

I compared its "MMORPGness" to Diablo 2. CoH feels no more like an
MMORPG than Diablo 2 felt like an MMORPG. CoH feels like a
predominately single player player game with multiplayer co-op added
on.... like Diablo 2.

The difference is, CoH has a monthly fee and claims to be an
MMORPG. Diablo 2 did not.

>> The result of this was enormously positive. There are places in
>> the game that are very social where you will frequently find not
>> just mages and fighters hanging out. Since folks know taverns and
>> places of that nature will usually have people willing to chat,
>> it is worth their time to visit such places.

> I enjoy RP, but only willingly.

Well once again, I should mention that Threshold is a role playing
required game, and we actively and stringently enforce this
rule. Thus, this result was exceptionally positive.

The overall point is that some game designed downtime dramatically
increased the amount of socialization going on in the game.

> Prior to Shadowlands, AO's night clubs usually had people willing
> to chat. But AO did not force you to go there. Creating a space to
> socialize seems more important than forcing people to attend. Make
> a space I want to visit, not one I'm required to visit.

This works too. I never said downtime was the only way to encourage
socialization.

For example, there are two extremely popular taverns on Threshold
and you are not required to go to either. That doesn't change the
fact that some downtime (not excessive amounts) ALSO plays a very
valuable role in encouraging socialization.

> There was downtime in AO, but it was voluntary and didn't break
> immersion.

There was travel time to mission areas, and you could /follow the
leader. This allowed everyone else in the group to chat. Once you
and your friends had airships, it was even easier because you could
just fly high into the sky and avoid all the obstacles as you flew
to the destination.

Also, while AO beats the pants out of CoH in the socialization
department, my experience playing the game for a year or so was that
99% of all chatting happened on global channels. That's cheating. :)

>> If you get a group, it feels like you are playing with
>> bots. Barely a single word is spoken because the game is designed
>> to be go-go-go all the time.

> It does not feel like playing with bots to me. To do it well, you
> need watch the other players carefully. There is some chat about
> strategy, targets, and destination. Moreso in missions than
> outdoor fighting (which, I suspect, is what most people do).

No you don't. The game is so simple I could almost teach my 2 year
old to play it. You don't need to discuss tactics if the people
playing have even rudimentary skills at playing the game. Every mob
fights the same. The tactics are always the same.

I've played 4 different archtypes (classes) to level 25+, and two
archtypes to level 35+. I'd say I'm pretty familiar with the
gameplay and it doesn't require ANY communication to succeed with
ease.

> It is definitely go-go-go all the time, however, which is
> wonderful.

For a single player game, absolutely.

For an MMORPG, heck no.

Furthermore, its not like the levelling rate is any faster in CoH
than most other MMORPGs.

So the game is go-go-go with no benefits and all detriments. The
treadmill is just as steep but you don't get to know people in the
meantime.

> There are always people LFG, and I've heard complaints (or more
> like, "Wow , thanks! I've been LFG for an hour!"). But this makes
> it easier to get a group if you're motivated.

Apparently what this really means is most people don't want to
group. This makes sense as the game discourages grouping in almost
every aspect of its design.

> And sidekicking makes it even easier since the level range is
> somewhat mitigated (at least at higher levels... it doesn't do
> much good for me to sidekick someone under level 12 or so).

Sidekicking is a great but broken idea. You cannot take sidekicks
into hazard zone, and starting at level 7 hazard zones are 100 times
better than any other type of zone in the game.

> Unless travel to and from a "social space" is instantaneous,
> there's alot more downtime than that in your design. After CoH and
> old-school AO, I will no longer tolerate more than a minute of
> downtime. Nor will I tolerate more than a couple minutes of
> travel. I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.

I recommend single player RPGs then. It doesn't seem like
socializing or meeting other people is much of a priority.

You are speaking as a player, and this is a perfect example of where
developers should ignore what a player says. Tons of players say
exactly what you said, and then when given that kind of game they
sadly wonder why it is so quiet and lonely.

> Or spend a year of my life levelling up to play a game.

The level treadmill concept is dead. Sadly, some developers haven't
realized this (CoH included).

> I'm beginning to think there's a bit of jealousy (and maybe fear
> or denial) about the success of CoH.

Jealousy? Now you're just making personal attacks.

If 5-10 years from now people are still raving about CoH, we'll see
how solid their game design was.
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